conducted
by Rajendra Chetty
1.
You explore
relationships extensively in your poems, especially with God and society. What is the link between your
religion and your poetry?
There is probably a
very deep, all-pervasive link. I would say almost everything that I write is
spiritual in some way. It’s not
something I set out to do consciously.
It’s part of my nature that shows in my writing.
2.
Is your poetry an
expression of your religious commitment?
It is not an expression
of my religious commitment in that sense that I am trying to create artefacts
deliberately to mirror my inner self - the “spiritual” force within me
naturally expresses itself in my poetry.
3.
Have the techniques of
religious poetry permeated your writings? If yes, in what ways?
I can’t respond to that
per se because I am not certain what is meant by the techniques of religious
poetry. When I write I am not conscious that I am writing religious poetry and
I am not conscious of a special technique that I am using either because it is
poetry or because it is religious poetry… I am conscious of technique that is
essential for making it “strong” poetry but not consciously using any special
technique associated with “religious” poetry.
The incantantory stuff, that is a
technique used in religious poetry and I have used it myself in poems such as
“Iqbal, it is winter here still” - so
there may well be influences I am not aware of.
Rajen] Coming back to Iqbal and the incantantory
techniques, was the Qur’an the start…
The Qur’an is a very,
very powerful work of guidance expressed in Arabic – it is a very moving book
and you know sound is all-powerful in the Qur’an. In fact in my recent readings
I have learnt that the single most decisive way of changing the inner being/
consciousness of a person is through the use of sound and the Qur’an obviously
uses sound supremely well. I’ve probably been subconsciously influenced by the
beauty of the Qur’an, - the Qur’an is in Arabic and powerful in its original
language - its rhythms and cadences are
“special” and it is very possible there is some imbibed sound system within
myself I am not conscious of.
Rajen] I’m glad that you mentioned sound, I’m glad that
you’ve cleared this up now, it’s very interesting what you are saying, because
I think in the reading of your poem…
That is possible,
because obviously I have a spiritual link with the Qur’an but also a genetic link
with other Islamic poetry, including Arabic and Urdu poetry. Strangely Douglas
Livingstone picked this up a long time ago when he said that my work was
subliminally ignited by what he called the ancient great Islamic poets – he
went on to say further, and this is not known as well “of whose art he knew
surprisingly little!” I believe that
there is a genetic link; I do think there is something in that. And obviously
in my growing up I must also have been exposed to sounds and rhythms that have
stayed with me.
4.
Your personal notes
make reference to a few catalysts that led to your insight into social and
political issues. How would you define the poet’s role within social and
political struggles?
I don’t think that any
one kind of person with any particular kind of ability only has responsibility
for everything around him. I think we all have a responsibility and if the poet
has words that he can use well then it is his special responsibility to use
them well, and if the musician has music that he could use well for the same
purpose then it is his responsibility to use his music well or for that matter
any person who has any ability. I think
there are many kinds of ability that human beings have - all are gifts that
should be used to the fullest. So to that extent that the poet is able to see
things within society as a result of some inherent ability to see in a
meaningful way then obviously the poet has a responsibility to comment on what
he sees and to try to transform his environment and the world.
5.
Which poet did you
admire most and had the greatest influence on your writings? I note that parallels have been drawn between
your writings and T.S. Eliot, Done, Dylan Thomas and Mac Niece.
I am often asked this question, I
think my honest answer to the question is I like good poetry – I cannot think
of one poet that I like more than others - when I read a good poem and (good is
obviously subjective, when I say good – I mean good to me) I am moved by it!
There isn’t any one poet or writer that I gravitate towards.
6.
Apart from Douglas
Livingstone, is there any other person who played a major role in your work as
poet?
I should say this again
-
The other person I think who played a pretty big role very
early in my career was Mike Kirkwood. Mike was more critical of my early work
than
Echoes
of my other self
7.
Comment on the fact
that many of the poems in “Echoes of my other self” are drawn from images of nature.
No. I probably imbibe what I see
in my surroundings and this becomes part of my inner self.
8.
What was the catalyst
for the long poem dedicated to the Islamic poet and philosopher, Muhamed Iqbal?
Catalyst. I was reading a lot of
Iqbal at the time, and what I liked about him was that he had this huge
optimism about human nature - an unquenchable thirst for development and the
desire to make the world and everything around come alive. That inspired me and
I looked at South Africa and I thought how essential the philosophy of Iqbal
was for us and how important it was for us, and in this sense I think “us”
means more specifically the South African Muslim community. It is almost the
only poem I have written that is specifically addressed to the Muslim
community. I was trying to say that we needed to come to alive within this
country of ours so that we could actually contribute to it ourselves.
9.
How do you strike the
healthy equilibrium between emotions and rationality without ranting and
raving?
I would like to think its’ a gift
in as much as it’s there – supplemented by reading and reflection - I am
grateful it’s there – this inner balance.
10. Are there notes of
anger in parts of your first work, e.g. the repetitive hardening imagery in the
poem the most I fear of heavy rain. When you look back to your first
collection, do you see development, a change in your poetry and writing style?
“The most I fear of heavy rain” - I think it’s a marvellous poem by
the way. It’s so rich - it really says more than one can actually imagine
because it says something, stops and takes you to something else but brings you
back more forcefully to the subject again. So you almost never know where
you’re being led but you are being led very decisively to the end – to the
subject of the poem, which is the obliteration, and the removal of people from
their homes and from their land. It is a poem that was written at the height of
the apartheid regimes’ madness. It isn’t angry in the sense of “shafting” anger
but it is quite an indictment of apartheid and those who implemented it. I would say it is a very deep indictment.
Shadows of a sun-darkened land”
was published in 1984. “Wisdom in a jug - reflections of love” was published in
1999 - 15 years later. It is a
completely different type of a book - a book of love – a book of healing.
11. What is the underlying meaning in the poem the bread I eat
is crusted? A critic referred to it as obscure.
The bread i eat is crusted was written at a time of spiritual crisis,
at the time of the worst of apartheid where people were being denied a
livelihood and life itself. Everything
was so painful in the whole world around me for all my fellow human beings that
the fact that I could actually still eat a piece of bread made me feel
incredibly guilty. I felt bad, I felt I shouldn’t eat because I thought of
people who couldn’t eat and therefore the bread that was in my hand became
crusted, became hard – it started to taste of a labourers sweat, because people
all over the country were dying, were labouring away, were doing things so
others could survive yet were not able to survive themselves and I almost felt
then that in eating a slice of bread I was eating the flesh of those who had
laboured in its production.
The felt
politics of your daily life at the time of writing Echoes of my other self are accurately expressed in the poem:
the border
is as far
as the black man
who walks alongside you
as secure
as your door
against the
unwanted knock
Do your poems stem from personal
experiences? Are they autobiographical?
I’ll tell you a little bit more
about the border that not too many
people know. The border had another
stanza at the end, which was cut off because we were very afraid of the
security police and the fact that one of my poems had been banned before, the
poem for Fatima Meer. That poem initially entitled For Fatima Meer and published as such in a magazine was found to be
a threat to the security of the state or something silly like that and I
published it again in the collection.
But I took out the “Meer” in the title as a precaution!
The border read at the end
as comforting
as timol’s death
in vorster square
We thought that it would be too provocative
to include that last stanza and therefore the Border was published without this stanza, but it worked very well
because I know that the Border has
been quoted very often - even in other people’s writings.
1.
You did deal with the
political and social problems of
I don’t think that I ever looked
at the writings of others and decided that I would remain aloof in any way. All
I ever wanted to do was to write good poetry - that’s all I have ever wanted to
do - Douglas said a good poet was one who had been dead for a hundred years and
one of his works was still read - I took
the act of writing very seriously, considered it a privilege and a gift to
write – and wanted one day to be known as a good poet.
I think I always wrote more from
my inner self - tried to understand my own inner self, the inner selves of
others, the manifestations of the state’s inner self - so if the country was in
trouble it meant that its people were in trouble – they were troubled human
beings, they lacked knowledge or understanding or generosity or they were full
of fear – something affected them. In my writing I have leaned towards going
into the heart of something and seeing it for what it is and therefore even in
my political writing I looked at the problems of society, not at the
superficial level of the problem itself but at the inner structural problem
within the hearts of human beings that resulted in oppression, unjustness,
cruelty, forgetting the humanity of others and forgetting one’s own humanity.
There are many, many political poems in my work – but they nearly always delve
into something deeper that I questioned or probed which allowed them to survive
the protest and survive as poems – one of which I hope will still be read a
hundred years after I am dead.
15. You articulate very eloquently your unique kind of protest
poetry in Shadows of a sun-darkened land as: I had attempted and I
felt succeeded, in "changing" the art of writing protest poetry by
incorporating protest in personal poetry in order to give the poetry a life
that would outlast the protest. Or in order to give the protest a life that would
remain as long as poetry is written.
Would you like
to comment on your unique protest strategy?
I think I said two
things – there was a part of me that leant towards the understanding of the
deeper self – that obviously helped me to do what I subsequently did. It was
“deliberate” in that in discussions that I had with Douglas we talked about the
political poetry of the day which he felt wouldn’t survive and he encouraged me
to write about things that would survive but I didn’t just want to write only
about the things that would survive and ignore the political turmoil which I
knew wouldn’t survive - and it’s good that it didn’t survive. It wasn’t just a
question of only writing about the sun, the earth and the moon, as these will
survive for thousands and thousands of years!
Having the inner leanings which I had – my natural leanings combined
with Douglas’s understanding of poetry and what made poetry survive – it was
very easy for me to do what my heart cried out to do which was to cry out
against the political problems and oppression of the day but do it in a way
that came naturally to me and which fulfilled I hope Douglas’ criteria of a
good poem and to get the best of both these worlds.
16. Critics often distinguished between those writers who
linked their works with political activism and those that wrote about themes
other than protest. Do you see poets that did not write against apartheid as
having had a different constituency?
I very rarely judge
other people and if someone didn’t write about apartheid then he or she didn’t
and here I think that my understanding of spirituality and God and goodness and
the fact that oppression basically is never sustainable and can never survive,
helped me – it doesn’t really matter who opposes oppression and who does not.
The oppressor has no hope of survival and if someone does not fight it there
are others who always will-in a sense if an individual chooses not do he simply
loses the benefit for himself of nothing having done so - I don’t look upon
such persons and judge them as having failed society – I think that they failed
themselves.
17. How did you handle the tension between politics and
aesthetics in your writings?
18. Many of your poems deal with
personal relationships e.g. in my poemless year. How did your personal
relationships influence your poetry?
I think it is a great thing to be in
love and to look around and see beauty because in both you are actually seeing
the divine - nothing other that - that’s really what its all about - so all
exposure to beauty and to love brought me close not only the person I loved but
also I hope, to the divine.
19. Would
you comment on the fact that you remain essentially optimistic in your poems?
E.g.
not the yielding of
seed to soil
nor even the delivering
of life from seed
is certain
but
There is actually no alternative
for a human being but to be optimistic because life is such a powerful force -
it is a force that you can use to shape things around you and much of your
ability to be transformational depends on how you are within yourself - I hope
that it reflects my own sense of trust in God and in goodness and that goodness
does prevail, life does prevail.
31. You
mentioned in your bio-details that protest must live as long as the poetry.
Does that explain poems like they call you mister steve biko now you’re dead, the
rain probes with a million eyes and death stalks the innocent and non-innocent?
Both
the Biko and the Imam Haroon poem are poems that can and should live forever
because they in a sense give life and celebrate the life of those who could not
do so physically - people who contributed to our freedom and to whom we owe a
great deal.
31. What
is the relevance of the three components sea, sky and land in inward moon
outward sun?
The headings are simply
a way of differentiating between poems dealing with different subject matter. I
looked for a way of separating them so that the collection would read better. I
decided to use sea, sky and land because they kind of flow into each other.
Land is easy because it really relates to poems that deal very largely with
issues of the land and other social and political issues. The sea and sky poems
deal mainly with the spirit and love – in a different context – though even the
political poems are spiritual or love poems.
I didn’t do this in the first two
books. One of the people who suggested this to me was Steven Watson. When I
started to plan a new book I had what I considered a quorum of poems that could
make a complete volume. But because I had not published over the past 15 years
I looked for people who would read the poems and critique them for me, because
I had grown rusty in many ways and I obviously still wanted to remain a “good” writer. I wanted to be sure I was still
writing poetry that was worth publishing, and
32. How
would you describe your style of writing?
To me two things are absolutely
essential for a poem to be called a poem and that is unique imagery and good
rhythm - those are fundamental elements in a good poem. Obviously there is a
great deal more than that. If you ask about things that are unique to me, these
would be an ability to get to the essence of things, to crystallize this
essence, and to write poems dealing
with almost nothing more than this crystallized essence.
33. Are
you essentially a lyric poet?
Very much so.
34. When
you work on poems, do you look for something to link them to make a collection?
I think that the link comes much, much later.
When you write a poem, you write that poem - you don’t have a collection in
mind at the time of writing. You never actually know if you are ever going to
publish another collection in your life - the link actually comes later.
35. Which
is your favourite collection and why?
There are two published works –
Shadows and Echoes. That’s really the only comparison that I can make. Of the
two I would think Shadows of the
Sun-darkened Land is probably the
stronger collection, but there are many poems in Echoes of my other self which I like a great deal as well.
36. Did
you forge any links with other South African Indian poets or writers?
Links,
I have - but not intimate links, they’re warm links and I consider many of the
writers my friends. But I do not have that kind of link where I associate
regularly with others or contact others regularly. When I was in
37. How have the critics received
your poetry? Has this informed your subsequent writings?
This becomes really subjective - I
think that my work has been exceptionally well received. Most of the reviews I
have read reflect a healthy appreciation of the writing. Obviously there have
been reviews –that have not been favourable, but that again is to be expected.
It would be surprising if everybody thought it was good. I just hope I don’t
get to a time when everybody thinks it’s bad!
38. Whom
do you envisage as your audience?
I hope that in the future it will
be everyone who reads, who cares, who feels, who loves – everybody.
39. What
have you been reading recently?
My recent readings are mainly
books on spirituality and books on love. I enjoy reading Rumi, a very famous
spiritual poet and other works on spirituality. Many of these authors I read
are human beings with a profound understanding of life and creation, themselves
and the human heart.
40. What
message do you have for your readers out there?
I think for anybody who reads poetry – whether
it is my work or anybody else’s work – it is important to find poetry they can
enjoy.
41. Tell me something of Inward
Moon, your new book due to be published by the
I think it was very important to
get Inward Moon published – because
it has some very good poems in it and also because it closes a chapter of my
life. Whether I will write again quite like how I have written in the past, I
don’t know. We will have to wait for time to show where my writing is headed.
●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●●
An
Interview with Shabbir Banoobhai
by
Bijuraj Kochi,
As a
reader (from some distance) I find that your poems are deeply rooted in Sufism.
Do you agree with this observation?
Before I respond to this question,
Bijuraj, let me first thank you most sincerely for caring to read my work and
for finding out more about it. Most people who read my work make the same
observation about it that you have just made. Therefore there must be some
truth in it. Personally I never consider
my writing as being rooted in Sufism, though in some way it might be. The
reason for my reluctance to do so is that I do not consider myself worthy of
being considered in the same company as those who have true closeness to the
divine. My own love for the divine is still weak and fallible. I see myself
simply as a very fortunate human being with a gift for understanding the
spiritual, but my own spiritual development has far to go!
Again, as
a reader, I found your writing has a soft touch. Or perhaps I should say you
are a writer who speaks to the heart with the heart. Is this an influence of
your religious outlook? Whether it is or not, what is your philosophy and
religious outlook?
I suppose since the over-riding
theme of my writing is love (the essence of every spiritual belief), it is
understandable that you would make such a comment. I once wrote that the
journey of love is a “journey of the heart, in the heart, from the heart to the
heart”. My formal religious belief is Islamic – I am a Muslim – and I try to be
a good one – but my understanding, not only of Islam but of all religions, is
that their source is one and their goal is the same - to help us see the divine
everywhere (both within and outside us); to love the divine always; to be
compassionate towards all; and to serve all of creation - men, women, children,
animals and trees.
References
to Love and God are often present in your poems. Can a writer change social
thinking? Or have the ability to lead social change towards God and Love. Where
would you want society to move in this respect?
I have already commented on the
place of love and the divine in my life and in my writing. A writer can certainly cause social change. How effectively depends
on the visibility his or her writing is given. Initially when this visibility
is low the impact the writer makes is generally limited to a small circle of
readers. But given time (and the building of a critical mass of writing) it is
possible to influence many people, especially in this technological age. This
is the reason why so many writers have their own websites. You have, I know,
seen my own website: www.veilsoflight.com
As for where I would like to see
society moving, I would like to see greater understanding amongst communities
and nations. But this can only happen if
there is meaningful communication based on respect for one another; so it is
essential that we make the effort to know others and their deepest values and
furthermore have the humility to learn from the values and wisdom of
others.
What is
your attitude towards poetry? How much can you expose of yourself in it? What
is writing for you?
I love poetry because it is such a
wonderful combination of art and music. In any art that expresses deep truths,
the writer often bares his own intimate self to others. In such instances the
language the writer uses itself reflects the state of his or her soul. This may, indeed, apply not only to writers
but to all of us. There is always risk associated with every kind of
communication but writers (knowingly or unknowingly) often both reveal and
conceal simultaneously – the deepest and most sensitive things are effectively
only revealed to the most sensitive reader – this itself affords the writer
some protection as the sensitive reader has a spiritual kinship with the writer
– while the less sensitive reader effectively only accesses that part of what
the writer is saying that the writer is comfortable sharing with someone with
such sensitivity.
What
about South African literature? What are the new trends? How do you compare
South African literature to international literature?
South African literature is currently
flourishing at every level; both old and new writers are writing new stories;
many of the new black writers are telling the stories of their lives and the
history of their communities. And most other writers are also finding something
new to say. Some writers are still searching for something as powerful to write
about as apartheid - the system that has just been dismantled; some of the new
writing celebrates our new freedom, some of the new writing is critical of the
new elite for forgetting the less fortunate too soon. A South African writer
J.M. Coetzee recently won the Nobel Prize for literature so South African
writing is taking its rightful place internationally.
You said
that you have good friendship with the great writer Fatima Meer. Say something
more about that. How did she look at your writings? And the influence she or
other writers have had on your own writing.
Fatima Meer has always been a
great South African activist, writing about and speaking tirelessly against
oppression in all its forms – both against apartheid and the global oppression
of the rich against the poor. Just recently she has been campaigning for the
cancellation of
While
studying in college you were a revolutionary. What were your political beliefs?
Have you changed your political views thereafter?
My political beliefs mirror my
spiritual beliefs. I believe that we are all essentially divine. I believe
therefore that we should not discriminate against people because of their race,
religion or gender. I believe moreover that we have a duty to be compassionate
towards every living creature and a duty to take care of others. I believe that
God has given us the earth to live on as a trust that we have to respect and
protect; and the earth’s resources are not to be abused or used selfishly. My
political beliefs have not changed over the years because these spiritual
beliefs have never wavered.
Racism, thankfully, is no longer
promoted legally – and consequently racism has decreased considerably since we
gained our freedom in the first democratic elections of 1994. However racism
has not been completely eradicated. This will take at least a generation as the
older generation still lapses into racist practices from time to time. However
we in
The black consciousness movement
arose during the era of apartheid when it was necessary to uplift the spirit
of, and offer hope to, Black people who were almost regarded as non-people in many
ways. The Black consciousness movement (and especially its most charismatic
leader Steve Biko, who was ultimately murdered by the security police of the
apartheid era, made Black people proud of their blackness and mobilised Black
people to rise against the apartheid regime. Of course all South Africans are
now equal before the law so Black Consciousness is not needed as a mass
movement any longer. The pride of all South Africans now mostly comes from
being South African and no longer from being black, white or brown.
Black
power in
Abuse of power is inevitable wherever
people exercise power. But this abuse is presently concentrated around specific
individuals (sometimes well-known and in high places!) but it is nothing like
the systematic abuse of power practised by the apartheid state and backed by
its military might. Of course all abuse has to be exposed ad stopped.
Recently
there have been many attacks against and a great deal of criticism towards
Islam. What do you have to say about religious fundamentalism? Is that also
happening in
Religious fundamentalism whether
espoused by Muslims, or by any other person of any other faith is ultimately
destructive – not only does it adversely affect the image of that religion but
unfortunately taints its adherents as a whole; and yet these adherents on the
whole may be as good as (or better than) than their counterparts belonging to
other faiths. Negative publicity is understandable if anyone commits an
atrocity in the name of his or her religion; but not understandable where the
publicity is relentlessly negative towards an entire community based on the
misguided actions of a few of its adherents. When this happens it calls into
question the bona fide nature of the criticism.
Presently Muslims in
From the
news we hear that an anti-imperialist struggle is emerging in different
parts of
South African activists are
starting to intensify the struggle against imperialism, global exploitation,
and Aids. It is interesting to note that even the South African government
supports a number of causes that Western countries and many white South
Africans still find difficulty accepting – such as support for the Palestinians
- though many Muslims feel the South African government is still not doing
enough. However
Gandhiji
fought against racism in
I am very proud to have been born
and to have lived in
You are a
person of Indian origin. How do you look at that? How much has Indian culture
influenced you? How much are you keeping your connection with the Indian social
system?
I am also proud of my Indian
heritage. Our broader family’s culture is still very Indian in many ways. The
food we eat, the clothes we wear, the language we speak to our elders are all
strongly influenced by our Indian heritage. We keep in touch with events in
What
about Indian Literature? Are you familiar with Malayalam Literature?
I love reading novels and other
literary work by Indian authors and in fact look for books by Indian authors almost
every time I go to a bookshop. I have read books by many Indian authors – too
many to mention individually. Unfortunately I am not familiar with Malayalam
literature.
Professionally
you are a commerce person. That field is entirely different and far away from
literature. How do you keep writing?
The fields are different, yes. I
am a writer at heart. My profession has been learnt. But I manage to live with
the two quite easily. And enjoy them both.
Have you
any plan to visit
I have visited